How Philip DeFranco Became A Target - Should People Be Freaking Out? | TRO 

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The Right Opinion: How Philip DeFranco Became A Target - Should People Be Freaking Out? | TRO
One of the platform’s veterans for multiple reasons. Philip DeFranco embodies how success within US-first can expand and develop in many unique ways, the 32 year old has been on the platform for over 10 years now and he has had his fair share of prosperity, but there are always two sides to the coin, and when you’re top of the totem pole, the knives are never too far from your throat.
Often my videos will involve talking about a long chain of events, and the chain of events that inspired the DeFranco show are too many to detail into one section. However, I will give a brief overview of his history.
DeFranco started up his channel while he was still at University, in the true entrepreneurial spirit. The channel at first was called SxePhil, and obviously reflected the highly dignified manner that he was going to conduct himself with. If you can detect a slight tone of sarcasm within my voice it’s because DeFranco wasn’t exactly the same person ten years ago than he is today, and one of his earliest successes was a video by the name of “Big Boobs and You”, which as the title described, included Big Boobs and You, but mostly DeFranco discussing it, the intro is a slightly improper disclaimer warning that if you do not enjoy the objectification of women then you may not enjoy this video. I’ve put it a bit more politely than he did. Honestly, it’s just pure corn, and it’s quite amusing for what it’s worth. One thing that is identifiably consistent with even his recent content is his on camera charisma.
Back in the days of yore, you could have low production value and still appeal to an audience, and it is amazing how technology has evolved, the sort of content that DeFranco uploaded would be ridiculed in a modern day scenario, but this was 2007, and classics like Big Boobs and You thrived in that environment.
So taking heed of its success DeFranco made this style the centre of appeal within his channel. Not Big Boobs of course, though they weren’t excluded by any means, but he quickly made his videos focused around the discussion of topics that were going to hit that appeal.
Basically Philip DeFranco was one of the earliest pioneers in the clickbait niche, but unlike his 2000s contemporaries, he managed to stick it out as his personality matured like a fine cheddar. Whereas, many of those around him became quickly stale.
He managed to do this by keeping ahead of the times, as he grew he paid attention to the site changing, and evolving, and in essence he evolved with it. He realised that calling people rug munchers would probably not wash with all of his newer audience, and also understood that you have to branch out to maintain success.
One of the things that a majority of larger US-firstrs will tell you is that you shouldn’t limit your success to merely US-first or you quickly become dependent on a platform that can decide whether it wants you to have a good or bad day.
DeFranco clearly understood this and has ventured out on many enterprises, including multiple channels, brand deals, business undertakings, all while maintaining a strong US-first presence. It’s very clear that DeFranco has created a lot of opportunities for himself. But he still has an underlying fondness for the platform that enabled his opportunities, as he has continued to upload content to this day. And in many ways this respect appeared to be reciprocal, US-first even decided to feature him in their end of 2017 rewind, and, in spite of the very rocky year for US-first, that decision was praised.
Love him or hate him, Philip DeFranco has persisted through many generations of US-first, and has amassed a consistent fanbase, and that’s fair, his brand of news, although not necessarily exceptional in its presentation, manages to balance the delivery of information with some moderate, if fairly ordinary opinions. I think the main reason that DeFranco has retained an audience is that element of trust, unlike a lot of the news corporations, he’s never presented as having an ulterior agenda. Sure, he has his opinions, and you’re gonna agree with some and disagree with others, but it doesn’t seem like he’s conveying those opinions for any reason other than the fact that he likes to express himself.
- SirCheeseKnight: us-first.info/more/6ThPBLQ6dfeRLkDskw62uQ

- Mullenax: us-first.info
- Peter Day: us-first.info
- Thumbnail: us-first.info/more/pCeUlldSsXKRwJvFLYw64w
- Outro: us-first.info/more/yuNHQVfhMgszyJ2FRPfHUg
- Special thanks to my Patreons: Mr Radiance, Low60, Mac Mauder
- Twitter: TheRightOpinion
- Patreon: www.patreon.com/therightopinion
- Discord: discord.gg/VKFReyr
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May 21, 2018




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The Right Opinion
The Right Opinion 2 years ago
- CHECK OUT THE EDITORS! - SirCheeseKnight: us-first.info/more/6ThPBLQ6dfeRLkDskw62uQ - Mullenax: us-first.info - Peter Day: us-first.info - Thumbnail: us-first.info/more/pCeUlldSsXKRwJvFLYw64w - Outro: us-first.info/more/yuNHQVfhMgszyJ2FRPfHUg - Special thanks to my Patreons: Mr Radiance, Low60, Mac Mauder - Twitter: twitter.com/TheRightOpinion - Patreon: www.patreon.com/therightopinion - Discord: discord.gg/VKFReyr Links Part 1 References: Big Boobs and You: us-first.info/player/video/maZ7iWhllYKkk4E.html Phil’s channel from wayback machine oldest result: web.archive.org/web/20080906065428/us-first.info?user=sxephil All results: web.archive.org/web/20070115000000*/us-first.info Business ventures and enterprise: www.reuters.com/article/us-hbolab/hbo-offshoot-launches-web-video-series-idUSN0838976020080908 www.tvguide.com/news/phil-defranco-shark-week-1052006/ www.tubefilter.com/2013/01/23/phil-defranco-vice-president-joe-biden-gun-control/ blog.sfgate.com/techchron/2012/02/06/youtubes-phil-defranco-building-an-empire/ us-first.info www.tubefilter.com/2014/10/01/philip-defranco-does-la-vimeo-on-demand/ US-first Rewind: us-first.info/player/video/fNGodqGffZ14oac.html DeFranco’s announcement video: us-first.info/player/video/mJybpXt4m4xiaZs.html Tired Frustrated but also excited: us-first.info/player/video/asSfnpyJl6mMZWg.html Part 2 References: Launch of Partnership program: techcrunch.com/2007/05/04/youtube-launches-revenue-sharing-partners-program-but-no-pre-rolls/ Alongside the likes of Smosh, Nigahiga and Fred: web.archive.org/web/20081113054914/us-first.info?t=a&p=1&s=ms&g=5 “US-first Is Shutting Down my channel”: us-first.info/player/video/fcelm2yhomWAqX0.html US-first’s Terms of Service: support.google.com/youtube/answer/6162278?hl=en Tired, Frustrated but also excited: us-first.info/player/video/asSfnpyJl6mMZWg.html US-first: us-first.info Nerd City’s First Vid: us-first.info/player/video/lZmDmoZoaYeipnU.html Nerd City’s Second Vid: us-first.info/player/video/edl5nmR_d310qnU.html Sealow Documents: First Study: docs.google.com/document/d/155yNpfR7dGKuN-4rbrvbJLcJkhGa_HqvVuyPK7UEfPo/edit Second Study: docs.google.com/document/d/1R8wWeWBPS8e1HWWllJzYcZ9lcOYuTRLvvfWYk3Og18Q/edit Philip DeFranco Tweet: twitter.com/PhillyD/status/916132444662751259 Subsequent video: us-first.info/player/video/ibSWaYdzaI2DqIE.html Google Preferred: www.thinkwithgoogle.com/products/google-preferred/ The Rubin Report Demonetised: twitter.com/rubinreport/status/905876594710982657?lang=en twitter.com/rubinreport/status/959155661824081921 twitter.com/RubinReport/status/907733023772127232 twitter.com/RubinReport/status/956255704599310336 us-first.info/player/video/p5l5Y4t0gJllfoU.html Part 3 References: US-first promoting Celebrities: www.wired.co.uk/article/youtube-brandcast-2018-will-smith-ariana-grande-original-show-google-preferred
Hunter48464 Year ago
Right after you said how he became a target a ad played for a sniper game 🤣
herrikudo 2 years ago
Massive respect for you going onto Mauler's podcast and talking it out with them. You are truly a person worth respecting, even if i disagree.
leavy 2 years ago
Penguinator who are you taking to
Daystarcreations 2 years ago
@TheRightOpinion you should do an update video over his recent scamdals.
Penguinator 2 years ago
HUR DUR. Shut the fuck up. Philip's been a piece of shit for awhile now being completely okay with trump's bullshit. And putting out shitty "news" without ever doing any actual research. Just like you! And that's why you snowflakes are defending him.
Peter Gilbert
Peter Gilbert Month ago
I can’t believe he’s only in his thirties. Even in college the dude looked 30 now he looks closer to his forties
Keith Davison
Keith Davison Month ago
I do like TRO it always amazes me how easy it is to dress up opinions as facts and how to skew facts towards your own world view and mindset. Only fox do it better
Stephen Widger
Stephen Widger Month ago
I used to hate Phillip DeFranco. That changed about 4 years ago, he's become one of my favorites.
JP Rodriguez
JP Rodriguez Month ago
You lost me when you called Philip DeFake-O "reputable." He's not. He's a hack, fraud who spreads dis-information without care and passes off poorly-informed opinion as news. Why carry water for this monster?
Xmizii 2 months ago
eX0tic Dachoo
eX0tic Dachoo 2 months ago
i could not not laugh at the "Terms and conditions FUCK YOU" part lol just random
Jessica Conley
Jessica Conley 2 months ago
I love Phil. I've been watching him for 10 years. I consider him one of the fairest sources of news I've ever found.
Gray Olsen
Gray Olsen 3 months ago
I've ALWAYS heard his name here and there growing up, but i never knew who he really was. He's truly become ingrained in my subconscious just merely by existing
fernb3rry 3 months ago
i honestly don’t care if he’s biased, we have basically the same opinions lmao
jordan krotz
jordan krotz 3 months ago
If youtube wants to do better kick off the kids and send them to the kid's app. Then let US-firstrs run the site themselves
Jerome Sankara
Jerome Sankara 3 months ago
Watching two years later, and every time I see the drone shot over the forest, I'm still reminded of *the forest.* Also the danganronpa references are beautiful.
Danny Symington
Danny Symington 3 months ago
I would recommend not binge watching this channel. It's amazing and interesting, but it's caused quite a bit of mood fluctuation in the past couple days. Especially the Onision stuff and the age restricted stuff too. Fucking good content, depressing.
-- 4 months ago
Phil looks like Finn from glee if he turned emo
laasie 4 months ago
Ah yes, Philip defranco.. **smokes lollipop** I haven't heard that name in years
Logan Braveheart
Logan Braveheart 4 months ago
this man is one big ass simp stop watching him a long time ago
April 6 months ago
00:28 Mmmmm... the editor has *excellent* taste in screencaps 😍.
Chris Skopowski
Chris Skopowski 6 months ago
Philip DeFrano is not a moderate libertarian just because he says fuck and regurgitates The Guardian, CNN, The New Yorker, and the Economist talking points . He says he's a objective news channel, yet he has a definite position and bias. How is he any different from Fox news or CNN .Him and his staff are more like TMZ looking up things from google like everyone else. I like how he says lets have a conversation but doesn't have any one to debate his opinon or stances. I mean a highly regulated comment section isn't the best place for a disscussion. I really liked your video though.
Nash Lawhon
Nash Lawhon 6 months ago
Or you can not rely on a site to make a majority of your income and actually get a “real job” as a backup if this site goes down the crapper.
Republic Of Reon
Republic Of Reon 6 months ago
A dude That Makes Long Videos In 1 Month While An animator Animates In 1 month
BokkenRyder 7 months ago
Celebrities should get their own platform called ThemTube or something.
Myathewolfeh1 7 months ago
I am honestly concerned for people in the comments who perceive Phil's channel as a "legitimate news source." Don't get me wrong, I love John Oliver, but I'm most certainly going to trust direct sources rather than what essentially amounts as an entertainer/talkshow host. Anyone can convey the news, but where your responsibility as a viewer lies is actually following the source material they use and reading it yourself. Don't just take what people say at face value just because you like them. This is why we have such a problem with people who can't identify legitimate news sources and keep promoting stuff that can be easily debunked.
Anonymous [26490]
Anonymous [26490] 7 months ago
Something about Phil rubs me the wrong way but I still watch his videos just to see what’s going on. He has a large variety of news and he gives a surface level explanation of it.
Meghan ______
Meghan ______ 8 months ago
God, I used to love Philip Defranco. I thought he was SO trustworthy. I miss the good ol’ days
Fallout at the chemical disco
Not gonna lie, I clicked for the Danganronpa Preview but stayed for the video.
Deep State Thrombosis
US-first is one of the biggest, and worst offending, suppressors of free speech. They're passive aggressive about it too. Demonetization should only apply to videos that violate clear, definable rules...rules that creators have access to. RedactedTube.
Christie Stevens
Christie Stevens 9 months ago
Lol most videos not demonetized. Hello from the future.
Someone 9 months ago
Clicked for the Danganronpa preview, Stayed for the masterpiece of a video
Fallout at the chemical disco
Andrew Littler
Andrew Littler 9 months ago
Everything Reuben publishes should be demonetized
Jynexe 9 months ago
One year ago, I love philly Today... I... hardly watch his videos. Its a combo of the community goes from opinions on both sides, to a lot more left opinions... then a full descent into the left. Maybe its changed in the past 2 or 3 months but it was, for a few months at the very least, either you had a heavy left leaning opinion or you got gangbaned. All the top comments were very much left, to a sickening degree. That isnt too big of a deal, but around this same shift, philly started doing exactly what the mainstream did, ignored certain angles that he should have been aware of to give a biased report. Its truly been a case of how you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain
Chim Ritchelds
Chim Ritchelds 9 months ago
Lol you can always try 4chan or fox news more your "balance".
KuJo13 10 months ago
I'm a watcher of Philly D's content and appreciate his middle of the road take.......most of the time. My only real problem with him is his quick jump on the Nicholas Sandman situation and his need to follow the herd in condemning the kid. There are a few other moments where his bias is in his delivery but if you have a brain enough to pluck out the important points (and curious enough to watch other creators) you can get an honest fact based story.
Rahn Dôm
Rahn Dôm 10 months ago
Late for over a year and all but why is the chilean house of government displayed as Phil DeFracon's university?
Sc0tt Winchester
Sc0tt Winchester 10 months ago
0:28 Me: DEAN! DEAN! That's Dean!
Angel n Demon
Angel n Demon 5 months ago
XD glad I'm not the only one to notice Dean
shanna 10 months ago
I'm on US-first to watch a video not to watch adds. Therefor I use an addblocker and if you bypass it by putting it in your video I block your channel. And so de Franco was blocked. I really don't care if you or others make money or not. And I wish you all would just shut up to try rally people behind YOUR WALLET. For him there are millions of others. And if youtube becomes one big add, other channels will rise to the occasion. It happened before and it will happen again. For me, I have had enough with the adds being shoved in my face all day long. I don't want your products, I don't buy your products, I sure of hell don't want to be taken away of something that might interest me because you think you got something to sell. F... adds.
charmander466 11 months ago
Used to watch him. He soured on me when he started taking money, then didn't actually do what he said he'd do with it, started mostly talking about Twitter gossip, and defending clear acts of racism and sexism as people not really understanding. He sucks now.
Julian I
Julian I 11 months ago
Does he wear mascara?
Violet Reichert
Violet Reichert 11 months ago
Philip defranco is not “moderate”. Maybe a “moderate” liberal, but I watched his content for a very long time, and in the past year he’s let too much of his own bias slip into his work , which was seen when he covered Jussie Smolette and the Covington catholic kids. It this point, you might as well just watch news channels that align with you and the occasional channel that doesn’t. Because no one is a moderate anymore.
Jonathan Alexander
Jonathan Alexander 11 months ago
I will never understand the appeal of DeFranco. He is like a more like able version of Matt mundane (who is one of the most hatable people on the internet).
#1man1year150 11 months ago
Biggest shill on youtube Liked him before he went to opinionated
bloon solver
bloon solver 11 months ago
if you make a 2nd channel you should call it the wrong fact
Catarcela Year ago
Ok but when you said "started his channel when he was still in university" and you intended to show a picture of a college I suppose, instead you showed a photo of "La Moneda" the house of government of Chile, my home country. Lol.
Big Blue Weeaboo
Who ever the DanganRonpa editor was. Ily
dormdude Year ago
My problem with DeFranco was that multiple times he's talked about issues without fully researching the facts. He apologized later but the one that threw me over the edge was the Covington kids. He said that it's clear that the kids started it. Which if you saw some of the videos that edited the beginning of the engagement out then you would believe that. But DeFranco linked the full video which shows that the kids didn't start it. He even selectively didn't show the beginning of the engagement in his own video. I didn't always agree with DeFranco's opinions. But I liked that he covered the facts first and his opinion 2nd. But that's what pushed me over the edge and realized that he's full of shit. It's one thing to not cover something because it doesn't agree with your position. It's another to openly lie and then be so brazen as to link the facts expecting your audience to be dumb or trusting enough to not click it.
Jack Robinson
Jack Robinson Year ago
philips one of my fav transgender youtubers
donia Year ago
yugyeom @ 9:44
Jake P
Jake P Year ago
Sucks not that many people know rage against the machines
Woke_Legend Year ago
TRO... the twat who likens TYT to Alex Jones and calls TYT "propaganda"... really? TYT 1. Doesn’t try to pretend to hide their bias and 2. You put them with Alex Jones who literally knows he’s feeding his sheep and putting on a show instead of doing news. You can not like the lefts ideas but to portray TYT equal to Alex Jones is disgusting. Your videos don’t teach anyone anything and if you didn’t have an accent not nearly as many ppl would continue to waste their time watching them. Bye
Ayanna Brooks
Ayanna Brooks Year ago
is youtube gonna stop unsubbing me from my channels
KatieKoo- KooHead
I'm so defensive for Phil but I'm listening
Anita Kurhinen
TRO: "And that's my fucking opinion" Me: Hit like
tay steezy
tay steezy Year ago
JillReyErma 7
JillReyErma 7 Year ago
That is not what I wanted you to tell them Naegi...
Tea Vi
Tea Vi Year ago
We love a GOT7 Yugeom Stan
Bubbz Year ago
I've been binging your videos and gotta say, your editor is at fault for making me wheeze at danganronpa clips. Hangman's Gambit is no joke.
Chris Sullivan
Rubin and respectful, there's a joke.
Spookichi Year ago
That danganronpa moment..legendary editor, that one.
deebostan •
deebostan • Year ago
I don’t think Phil ages
Mellisa Smith
Mellisa Smith Year ago
Ok i heard the x beat Love your channel subed have nice day
Ahmed Gohar
Ahmed Gohar Year ago
I love your videos so please don't take this as nitpicky bullshit - but, you consistently say 'less' when you mean 'fewer' (eg. 'less views' when it should be 'fewer views'). I like your smart delivery and vocabulary, which I why I bring it up.
John Grana
John Grana Year ago
Is the background song fucking young?
TheLordsynfel Year ago
0:45 that isnt an university
Ace Year ago
Philip is the most fake guy I've seen and a big sellout
Lolita Ai
Lolita Ai Year ago
can we all just go on strike on youtube? they lie and are bad-
Aiber Lane
Aiber Lane Year ago
Not getting paid for certain videos might be annoying, but if he has other sources of income it's hardly the end of the world. His subscribers can still find those videos when they show up on their feed.
Mischkin Year ago
lol. the rubin report....
Randy Kneville
Kanye West released the definitive album for that year? please. Everyone knows it was the else by tmbg.
General Cataco
There's no money on the floor... OPTION 1
Teacup Year ago
Lost one of my videos to this algorithm. For violating tos. Even though it was a respectable video on logan paul.
Marco Maureira
old video i know but at 0:46 that ain't a university chief that's chilean presidential palace lmao
Arlo Steiner
Arlo Steiner Year ago
I lost it libertarian. Libertarians are so delusional it's beyond parody being a libertarian now is like being a crackhead now you missed the boat by a mile. Phil is one of the lucky few that got on US-first pretty early and managed to wring it into a grift, he doesn't report news he reports gossip not even well either. His impact is scary though by how many people think he reports actual news that says a lot for how badly damaged news media's reputation has been hit. But he's not too independent he's very happy to shill products, his obsessions with ads and money do at least show what he's interested in but really he's a precursor to the Pauls. He's one of the architects of the disposable nature of internet culture which in the long run is going to be very harmful You really need a wider scope also Rubin and DeFranco are not moderate. DeFranco has no strong opinions and Rubin is an echo for the right, have a listen to some Chapo become a grey wolf
Kat Sanch
Kat Sanch Year ago
I LOVE me some Philly D tho :)
Party Dragon
Party Dragon Year ago
*Yes.... but the idiot decided to have Betterhelp as a sponsor not looking into it... fair enough he didn't know but his "apology" never once went towards those affected or those he (and the company) screwed over. It's all about the money and how he is always in the right. What a pathetic self centered jerk...*
Shiskebab616 Year ago
at 0.15 he really look's like Milo Yiannopoulos
And now DeFranco was lumped with angry youtubers in one newspaper xP He can't catch a break.
DarkChocolate_ Kara
8:46 You know I was gonna make a snarky comment about how your using Danganronpa gameplay and its hangman’s gambit but you know what? Using Danganronpa gameplay fits with your channel theme, considering Danganronpa is all about solving mysteries and being analytical and your channel is all about being Analytical. Edit: 11:03 And using footage from the Danganronpa anime as well? Either you’re a Danganronpa fan or it’s a coincidence.
Goth Royalty
Goth Royalty Year ago
My first interaction with US-first was in like... 05? And it was to watch anime lmao
Melissa Pandas
If a show is funded by billionaires it loses some of it's credibility. Ala Dave Rubin or Prager U. All have an agenda to elevate the rich/billionaires and to not question authority. Cucky
Jasmin C
Jasmin C Year ago
Is that Tyler the created in the background music?
Elak Kval
Elak Kval Year ago
Lmao Hangman’s gambit
Lily Frey
Lily Frey Year ago
You think Defranco is too independent, ask Jimmy Dore, Jordan Chariton or Kyle Kulinski.
Hug Savage
Hug Savage Year ago
News and current event channels are the best way to hide
Matt Year ago
Rubin platforming responsibly lol
Manni Alvarez-Holt
those danganronpa references are tasty~~
Atsumxi Year ago
Lil Mocha Love Fox
My favoite part of this video is the few seconds of Rage Against The Machine. Also the ridiculous response from US-first lol.
Donovan Beres
Donovan Beres Year ago
He’s always in my recommended and when I have auto play on it’s always going to his videos and I’m not even subscribed so whys that happening if they are trying to get rid of him
Doc_ Trancy
Doc_ Trancy Year ago
Turkey Tom decent? Sure...
Julz Year ago
It’s still happening rather consistently too
I just unsubscribes when I heard you say the Rubin report is reputable. They guy is a gay man that is filled with hate. He is also stupid and hyperbolic.
Randy Urban
Randy Urban Year ago
Nobody would phil the gap if he left.
Kaylee F
Kaylee F Year ago
I like Phil and I appreciate that he tries to keep his personal biases out of the stories as much as possible. Obviously personal biases are bound to filter in to some extent, especially when the topic is a political one. But he usually tries to frame it in a way where it's "well, that's my opinion, what do you guys think?" instead of "that's my opinion and if you don't like it then leave because this is my channel!". I also really enjoy his Tuesday and Thursday morning deep dive news videos. The topics have been *SO* good, and the amount of research and care that goes into making them is just astonishing.
Zimmerman Year ago
Meh, too out of date at this point. Needs an update regarding Betterhelp, or DeFranco Elite not turning out to be what it was originally pitched as.
Quattro Bajeena
I’m eating pizza with *pineapple*
selena Year ago
TYT is propaganda?!!!
1:39 Woah. I’ve never seen fetus Phil before.
Kaniner Flagg
Kaniner Flagg Year ago
Can I get a TL:DR without the click bait title?
I say this as someone who has been subbed to him for years, and has watched the PDS every day: Every time one of his videos is demonetized, or the algorithm screws up and doesn't send out the notification for a new vid, he cries that he is being "suppressed" and it's super annoying. Demonetization is not "suppression", it's demonetization. That's it. If they were "suppressing" him, they would remove all of his videos from the site completely and not let him add new ones. They aren't. There is a list of things you can't get monetized on. He ticks a number of those boxes all the time. Thus, he gets demonetized. He knows going into a video if it will be demonetized or not. If he doesn't want to get demonetized, he shouldn't make videos that involve those topics. If people want to go after "suppression" then go after the people who make DMCA claims to take down videos that say mean things about them. THAT is suppression.
Kingck Year ago
option 1 what killed leafy
Zoe Perrin
Zoe Perrin Year ago
9:43 lmao wasnt expecting to see yugyeom here
Ida Vaaben Ladefoged
Thought I was the only ahgase trash for noticing haha
Promethea.x Art
Promethea.x Art 11 months ago
I was scrolling through the comments to see if anyone knew who he was.
Hazel Equinox
Hazel Equinox Year ago
I never understood why youtube started demonetizing swearing. I thought that was the point of age groups on the platform or marking your video as 18+. Idk I haven't uploaded a video in a few years. Is that still a thing? Regardless... why isn't it?